Lets try again… hard to diagnose misfire/hard start issue on an 85T


  • Lets try again… hard to diagnose misfire/hard start issue on an 85T

    Many of you know I've been fighting to get my 85T to run properly ever since I bought it 7 years ago. It was so frustrating, I gave up on it for 6 of those years. Well, now I truly need this car to work, so I'm trying again. The issue: Always hard to start after it sits for a while, and stalls and misfires for a while until it gets going. It used to work well after I got it into boost and warmed up a bit, but after I swapped trannys (Auto to manual) now it misfires 24/7, although I believe there are two separate problems at this point.

    What I've done to fix it, or try, anyway:

    1) Swapped FPR. Both used, neither leak. No change.
    2) Cleaned MAF. No change.
    3) Replaced CHTS and subharness. Everything improved, but problem persists.
    4) Tune up including NGK plugs, new wires, cap and rotor. No change.
    5) Swapped trannies from Auto to manual, caused a separate, more severe problem.
    6) Swapped ECUs. 85 auto to 84 manual. Idle dropped to the point where it won't stay running.
    7) Replaced all vacuum lines except the ones on the turbo, and the breathers. Subtle improvement.
    8) New timing belt, water pump, and tensioner. Improved, but same problem present. Timing IS correct.
    9) PRW-2 swap. Smoother idle, faster response, problem persists.
    10) Deleted fuel pressure solenoid (FPR vac line straight to the manifold) no change.
    11) Installed Walbro fuel pump and new fuel filter, no change.

    There's more, I'm sure, but I can't remember. As you can tell, I've poured hours and hours into this repair, with very little progress, and now I've even managed to regress a bit.

    First and foremost, I need it to run smooth again once warmed up. It always used to, until I converted to a manual transmission. It misfires constantly now, and is generally undrivable.

    This HAS to be related to the tranny swap in some way, as it changed as soon as the new tranny went in. Here is what I think could have caused it:

    During the install, we broke the exhaust studs on the downpipe (as does everyone else it seems). We did everything we could to remove them, but only managed to remove one. We decided to drill the other two out, but they broke our drill bits! At that point, I gave up, and took it and a spare downpipe I had from an 84T to an exhaust shop to have it repaired. He said the 84T downpipe was in better shape, and replaced the studs in that, and I bolted it up to my '85. It looked identical other than it didn't have a heat shield on top, and bolted up perfectly. The guy who fixed it also said to use copper sealant to re-install it, and so I did. I'm worried this has created some kind of problem now, because it was the only change we made to the engine, other than adjusting the TPS according to the Haynes manual.

    Any help would be SO appreciated, I've been chasing my tail for a while on this one, and I'm tired. My daily driver is also dying, and I need the Z to become my primary transportation ASAP. This is all that is holding me up now.
    "Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car. Oversteer is when you hit the wall with the rear of the car. Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall. Torque is how far you take the wall with you…"

    -'68 Datsun 1600 Roadster
    Build Thread: http://community.ratsun.net/topic/21…-build-thread/
    -'85 300zx Turbo
    Build Thread:
    http://z31performance.com/showthread…)build-thread!

  • #2
    You should read the fsm and diagnose your actual engine to ecu harness before going crazy replacing parts

    You can start the car with none of the transmission sensors, o2/fts/chts or afm sensor attached, for testing you can loop or plug all the vacuum lines too and just run one from the plenum directly to fpr

    Bad/leaky exhaust gaskets might cause rough running but shouldn't prevent you starting

    You need to narrow this down to a hot start problem or a fueling/ignition problem, your frustration has blinded you

  • #3
    I run mine on MAF, CHTS, and CAS (distributor). VERIFY - - that plug wires for 4 and 6 are not crossed at the distributor cap. it happens. make sure the ECU you have IS BY NUMBERS an 84T ECU! I would also look into a spare working MAF as a just in case part to test with, as I have yet to hear of "cleaning" one actually working. they clean themselves. its also wise to have a spare regardless. I would highly advise running ECU codes to see what turns up.

    the changes you have made - trans, and elbow change, would have no bearing on how it runs, unless there is an issue affecting the o2 sensor - unplug and see if it changes situation.
    Damn dirty angels....these cars!

    Current Daily Driver - 86 Turbo.
    Under the cover - THE BANANA… that needs to be re-energized.
    sigpic

  • #4
    Axel kain;336191 wrote: make sure the ECU you have IS BY NUMBERS an 84T ECU! I would also look into a spare working MAF as a just in case part to test with

    unless there is an issue affecting the o2 sensor - unplug and see if it changes situation.
    These things. Especially since you said issues with idle happened when you put in the new ECU. If you aren't sure on the ECU, post up a picture of the numbers on it so we can look it up.

    Also, in addition to a known good MAF, I'd also try swapping in a known good distributor. Could be the CAS on the way out.
    Prius… because Pretentious wouldn't fit across the back of the car…

    Cheap, Fast, Reliable - pick any two

    My 1986 Turbo Build

  • #5
    Axel kain;336191 wrote: I run mine on MAF, CHTS, and CAS (distributor). VERIFY - - that plug wires for 4 and 6 are not crossed at the distributor cap. it happens. make sure the ECU you have IS BY NUMBERS an 84T ECU! I would also look into a spare working MAF as a just in case part to test with, as I have yet to hear of "cleaning" one actually working. they clean themselves. its also wise to have a spare regardless. I would highly advise running ECU codes to see what turns up.

    the changes you have made - trans, and elbow change, would have no bearing on how it runs, unless there is an issue affecting the o2 sensor - unplug and see if it changes situation.
    It runs the same with both ECUs, but since the manual ECU has a lower idle, it stalls more easily. The ECU came from my parts car, so I know it is a genuine 84T ECU.

    When I swapped the downpipe, I left the other O2 sensor in it (From the 84), and I don't know of it's condition. Would a bad O2 sensor cause this? If so, I think that may be my answer. I never thought an O2 sensor would have such a profound effect on the way a car runs.

    I also have a spare distributor laying around that I may try out, I don't know if it is good, but it probably is. The car it came from was the same car as the ECU, and it was junked because of a hole in the side of the block. Everything I've ever removed from it so far has worked perfectly. (Only 96k on the odo!)

    I have 2 MAFs laying around, but both are bad unfortunately. I haven't found a good spare yet, though I've obviously tried.

    Plug wires weren't touched when this happened, so the order should still be correct.
    "Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car. Oversteer is when you hit the wall with the rear of the car. Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall. Torque is how far you take the wall with you…"

    -'68 Datsun 1600 Roadster
    Build Thread: http://community.ratsun.net/topic/21…-build-thread/
    -'85 300zx Turbo
    Build Thread:
    http://z31performance.com/showthread…)build-thread!

  • #6
    Just to clarify…
    Plug wire for cyl #4 should be plugged into the #4 spot on the dizzy cap, correct?
    Even though it doesn't follow the pattern of 1, 3, 5 that's on the opposite side?
    http://z31performance.com/showthread…2-2-(-now-NA2T
    My build thread (:

  • #7
    concerning the low idle, be sure the TPS is adjusted correctly too.
    Damn dirty angels....these cars!

    Current Daily Driver - 86 Turbo.
    Under the cover - THE BANANA… that needs to be re-energized.
    sigpic

  • #8
    I'd still like to know about the O2 sensor. Would a bad O2 cause this? I'm going to work on it today, and try to get it going again.

    Edit: I realized I missed something when reading. You said to unplug the O2 sensor? I'll try that and see what happens, and report back.
    "Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car. Oversteer is when you hit the wall with the rear of the car. Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall. Torque is how far you take the wall with you…"

    -'68 Datsun 1600 Roadster
    Build Thread: http://community.ratsun.net/topic/21…-build-thread/
    -'85 300zx Turbo
    Build Thread:
    http://z31performance.com/showthread…)build-thread!

  • #9
    I been struggling with mine too, i replaced multiple things as well, almost simmilar to what you done to your car, those ur car have a air leak sound around the Idle stop selenoid and the Idle control valve,(IACV) mine did, so finally ended ordering those parts i believe they will come in i let you know how it does.

  • #10
    Okay, I have had some time to play with it, and have made progress! It dawned on me that my brother has an '86 NA with a manual tranny that runs like new, so we used parts from it to do some testing. When we swapped the TPS, the car suddenly ran 1000x better, before spending any time getting it adjusted perfectly. It still doesn't run perfectly, but it answered at least one question. I ordered a new one from Rockauto. It should be in next week. I also ordered new plug wires, a new ignition coil, and an o2 sensor. I want this car in top running order, I'm tired of fussing with it!

    I know it looks like I'm just throwing parts at it, and I am. I had always planned on replacing most of this stuff anyway though, as I wanted mostly new parts in this car so it is trustworthy. Once I get these parts in, I'll let you guys know what happens.
    "Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car. Oversteer is when you hit the wall with the rear of the car. Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall. Torque is how far you take the wall with you…"

    -'68 Datsun 1600 Roadster
    Build Thread: http://community.ratsun.net/topic/21…-build-thread/
    -'85 300zx Turbo
    Build Thread:
    http://z31performance.com/showthread…)build-thread!

  • #11
    Did you ever try just unplugging the O2 sensor to see if it makes a difference. It really isn't needed anyway.
    Prius… because Pretentious wouldn't fit across the back of the car…

    Cheap, Fast, Reliable - pick any two

    My 1986 Turbo Build

  • #12
    Sounds like you may harness issues.

    1986 300ZX Turbo…sold
    1990 Skyline GT-R…new money pit
    2014 Juke Nismo RS 6-speed…daily

  • #13
    NissanEgg;336522 wrote: Sounds like you may harness issues.
    Dear god I hope not… that would SUCK. What makes you think that? The new TPS helped, but didn't alleviate the issue completely, so I'm hoping I'm on to something.

    jaqattack02;336508 wrote:
    Did you ever try just unplugging the O2 sensor to see if it makes a difference. It really isn't needed anyway.
    I did unplug the O2, and when I did, it ran worse, if anything. I ordered a new one just in case though. The O2 in there is crazy old, so who knows what condition it is in or how long it will last if it does work. Cheap insurance.
    "Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car. Oversteer is when you hit the wall with the rear of the car. Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall. Torque is how far you take the wall with you…"

    -'68 Datsun 1600 Roadster
    Build Thread: http://community.ratsun.net/topic/21…-build-thread/
    -'85 300zx Turbo
    Build Thread:
    http://z31performance.com/showthread…)build-thread!

  • #14
    I see no mention of you checking/changing/cleaning the injectors. That would also be something that I'd look into and would be willing to bet it'll clear up many of your remaining issues…

  • #15
    You need to ohm out each injector. Should be about 2-4ohms for your year car. Any that read below 2ohms or more than 5ohms are bad, including OFL or infinity.

    1986 300ZX Turbo…sold
    1990 Skyline GT-R…new money pit
    2014 Juke Nismo RS 6-speed…daily