The truth about Ebay Turbochargers

I'm sorry for this disgustingly long rant, but I just have to add my two cents and hopefully stop this craziness about knock-off vs. brand name turbochargers…

-Physical Testing

To prove either point on both turbochargers we must:

1. Find the original designers plans, tolerances, metals used and content of metals in any alloys used. We would likely need to be into corporate espionage or work at a manufacturing plant with sufficient clearance for this.

2. Observe and note the Axial and Radial shaft play in at minimum a few thousand units of each turbocharger. This would require a load of money for the turbochargers, and a couple of average machine shop measuring tools.

3. Inspect the type of metal / quality of the metal used (Is some b.s. soft filler metal used in the process, or higher quality metal that is up to spec.?), we would need a metalurgist and a lot of money to pay him / them.

4. Test in a VSR Balancing machine to check how many G's at how many RPM's at how much Oil Flow each turbocharger pulls. Again, super expensive and time consuming.

5. Temporarily install them in a test jig with a motor capable of providing enough heat and exhaust velocity / pressure to sufficiently test the heat tolerance of the parts of the assembled turbochargers during operation.

There are likely quite a few things I am forgetting, but the above should be adequate proving grounds for turbocharger quality testing when used for a multitude of units since most knock-off producing manufacturers do not use quality assurance standards / systems.

In reality it is highly unlikely that any of us have the money or would spend that kind of money to test turbochargers from various American, Canadian, Japanese, German, and Chinese manufacturers, although it would be a good way of putting a stop to all of the speculation, as well as a good way to eventually knock the bad manufacturers out of business.

On the other hand:

-Common Sense

It is generally agreed upon, and considered logical in many consumer circles that an item with a reputation for performing reliably including a good serviceable warranty can be trusted just as much as an item with a notable amount of failures and no warranty can't be trusted. We follow this way of thinking due to the fact that it simply makes sense and also because the other ways of testing and proving reliability after something has been built (in this case) is just plain impractical for the average person.

You guys are right about the high failure rate of knock-off turbochargers and high reliability rate of name brand turbochargers, but there is always the exception (the few lucky individuals who recieve a perfectly made unit). The exception is very small from what I have heard on other forums from owners of these knock-offs. One must mitigate the risk involved and make a decision… In the end, is it a wise idea to take that kind of risk, even if its a temporary setup? Hell no!!

Logic alone is a back-up to that answer, as almost NO knock-off turbochargers have SERVICEABLE warranties. I have done an ample amount of research and browsing forums as well as dealers and shops to find that result every time, if anyone wishes to refute the previous statements… please remember that the burden of proof would generally be against one who postulates that a unit carrying no warranty is of comparable quality to one with a serviceable warranty in the first place, which would be an ideological fallacy unto itself. In my opinion, only a group of idiots (many Ebay sellers) would believe that a product with no warranty being sold on mass production scales is anywhere near comparable in quality / reliability to a product of the same production scale with a warranty.

But…

Lets do some simple math with some assumed numbers anyway:

Let's say that 90% of name-brand turbochargers are known to be reliable and provide years of fully functional service, and 80% of knock-off turbochargers are known to be unreliable and fail quickly.

To be sure enough that we are fair here, let's say that these percentages apply to a 10,000 unit order.

10,000 Units X 80% (Failure Rate) = 8,000 Units

and

10,000 Units X 10% (Failure Rate) = 1,000 Units

Now lets take the average pricing of a Garrett GT35 Turbocharger: $1,350

And the average pricing of a GT35 knock-off: $275

$1,350 X 1,000 Units = $1,350,000

and

$275 X 8,000 Units = $2,200,000

Basically, someone would have to spend at least the amounts above to get a "good" turbocharger through straight forward hook-up and testing of each brand. Note that the Garrett is still cheaper then the knock-off when comparing apples to apples.

Now I'm no statistician, but I would say that if one chose this route of testing (and was very rich) they would eventually come to the conclusion that no matter what, it is cheaper in the end to just buy the name-brand (quality assurance standards used, with serviceable warranty) turbocharger and call it a day. Not to mention the heavy probability of a compressor wheel rubbing the housing, chipping apart, and blowing your engine.

*Prices are from current Ebay pricing. Knock-off turbos tested would be from the same manufacturing plant. I have owned GT35, Super T70, and k04 knock-offs that have all had various failure points in short time spans. I currently own a Ceramic Ball-Bearing Turbonetics T66 T4 Turbocharger with an Alloy HP Compressor Wheel and an Inconel F1 Turbine Wheel and I beat the crap out of it… No oil restrictor in and a small 3/8" oil drain tube. No leaks and no problems yet.

Thread cleaned up.
Back on Topic.

Well yeah, if you buy a turbo with no warranty your a bit of a retard… The To4e i used to have got the shit beaten out of it also with no oil restrictor in the feed line and its still a sweet as turbo, 3 years down the track.

I think also, some people are careless and don't make sure that the turbo is clean inside and make sure that nothing ends up in the exhaust before the turbo that could end up going through the blades and destroying the turbo. The more expensive turbos probably have a stronger material that the blades are made from and aren't as prone to exploding as the cheaper brands. I really don't think they are as shit as people say, its all about the care taken when installing it.

insinuates the false assertion of turbocharger reliability depending ONLY upon correct installation. Although I can't speak for the rest of us, I personally would not want to mislead anyone new to turbocharging.

Recommended reading:

Turbo : Real World High-Performance Turbocharger Systems

By Jay K. Miller

and

Maximum Boost

By Corky Bell

The above books have excellent information pertinent to this thread. Jay K. Miller explains precisely why most knock-off turbochargers should be avoided.

I'm taking your advice and I'm gonna get a garrett center cartridge for $400 the only thing ebay will be the compressor housing and the turbine housing, the blades and everything else internal will be genuine garrett.

That's not a bad choice at all.
I know someone who has that on a 240z with RB25 and boosts it to 18PSI whenever he drives it.

A kid came in with the china turbo and he took apart the Center Cartridge infront of him and showed him how badly made it was. The kid decided to buy a rebuilt garrett from him at that point.

The compressor and turbine housings were checked for integrity, ported, and then put on a garrett center section and the turbo was pretty much like any other garrett turbo, and the casting was very well done as well for a china turbo.

Been running ever since.

it's actually cheaper dude.

okay. i pay 200 for a ebay turbo. and i have the center cartridge changed out for a garrett unit thats 400. thats a total of $600 dude!

and you would pay almost 800 - 900 for a brand new T3/T4 from garrett, you just saved your self almost 200-300 dollars.

idk seems reasonable to me. thats how much i got quoted on anyway.

[quote]Careless wrote: best part is it comes with warranty if something SHOULD happen that is it not my fault like turbo failure of some sort i can get it replaced.

ok, I'm bringing up the old thread.. I've had 3 ebay turbos in the past.... first one many many years ago, ran it for a while after I had my 1st turbonetics failure (mind you after 60 days? of the turbonetics install) ran that for a few weeks, no problems, back to the turblownetics.(for 30 days this time(i think it was like 300 miles) back to the ebay cheeseball still no problems with it, no where near the power, but it was strong… turbonetics failed one more time, this time 24 psi boost, the rings toasted, well the ring landings.. As I put the ebay special back on, and it was smoking, I thought it was the turbo… toar down the turbo, everyhting was all clean, and still good...... and that was about the end of turbo one for me, sold it to a local, who said it was bad ass, but honda's around here are a dime.......
anyway, ebay special #2 was used on my 300zx running 12 psi on higher pressured stock injectors for a while (actually ported head blah blah blah) thern i wanted more boost, so I ran to 10 psi then sprayed lots of methanol to i9t and ran 18 psi… wow that was a beast!! press to pass, in 2nd at 35? and laid right sideways (welded rear diff) ran that set up all last summer(second summer for that turbo) now I just pulled the car back out, I'm running megasquirt now, and my clutch is dead… but still turbo is huffing and pufing ready to rip........
ok ebay special #3 started its life as a simple t3 t4 ebay special, but I swapped on a turbonetics 60-1 hifi compressor on it....turbonetics are balanced seperate, so I figure its close enough.... I ran that on my 280z running 10 psi non intercooled with 300zx engin management.. Ive put about 7-10,000 on it no problems… and as for the compresore housing, I slapped that on a 280zx exhaust and center, and sold it… So I spent 20 for the other exhaust and center, and 100 for the busted turbonetics turbo.......

so all in all Ive ran ebay knock offs WAY more reliably then a turbonetics turbo..... now on a sidenote, my buddy runs a turbonetics and has for several motors. they come stock with lots of shaftplay, and they even will tell you thats normal??? I had it rebuilt and evertime went very quickly! and the last time i didn't run the turbonetics till the warranty ran out.. big mkistake, it was smokeing as soon as installed, and after 500 miles i took it off.... they never returned emails about how I can have it rebuilt I even offered it to them for free just pay shipping to them so the could all look at it and improve on it flaws.. still no responce!!!!! well I finally took it apart, the thrust bearing was busted!!!! for shits and giggles I reassembled it using a good thrust.. there was almost no shaftplay.......... But anyway, sorry about the rant!

long story short every company has a bad apple.. but I have ran the crap out of ebay specials and have had NO problems!!!!

a tiny bit of play is normal because there is no oil film between the bearing and the shaft. if you can rotate the wheel while pushing it off to the side of the housing and it still spins without contacting the compressor housing inlet- then it's pretty normal.

thats pretty much what turbonetics said also. But seemed to be far more than any Garrett precision atp or ebay special turbo that I ever felt, which all felt very similar.. very small amount of shaft play.. but the turbo netics felt substantial everytime it was rebuilt, and everytime it toar itself apart in no time...... so I think I was one of the unluck people who got1 new, and 3 rebuilds of bad turbos from them… Its a one in a million, or far less shot, but I imagine that it would happens eventually where someone gets totally shit on by a very reputable company, just sucks to be me....

BB turbo's have more shaft play because the bearings are "free floating"

Shaft play is also important do to the fact of how much friction is created, think of it has rudimentary as starting a fire with a shaft of wood in a secondary piece of wood with a hole. Or another example, having sex, don't won't a dry whole, thus tearing skin, so the same theory follows is with wet cooled or ball bearing, shaft play allows for excess heat to be distributed so the heat from friction is not transferred to just the shaft and bearing thus causing heat expansion.

Now to take in consideration knock off turbo's, well think of the type of alloy used, and method of oil supply to the turbo, specifically to the shaft and bearings. Most likely if you have a bad oil supply to a oil cooled turbo, it will affect the shaft and bearings in more ways than one, specifically if the bearings aren't being cooled effectively it can cause the shaft to expand and soften causing it to warp, thus increasing shaft play with bearing's expanding, which in turn decreases quality after every use. That's why it is very important after ever use, you check the shaft play to see if it's in tolerance, you don't need any special tool to measure tolerance, just good judgment, moving to see if the compressor isn't rubbing the housing, after many checks it's identified that there is no contact with the compressor and housing from prolong use, there's a general assumption made that you can say that the turbo you're running is great quality. I just outlined the few of the critical aspects of shaft play, feel free to add whatever you want, but most was already mentioned in previous post.

I understand why people are getting mad about ebay turbos, but not are all bad I bought mine from CXR racing and it works very well. I am running a T3T4 50 trim, and I am pushing 18 psi. It is strong and it spools pretty fast. I guess I was just lucky I read the reviews for the company.

Been running my ebay Monsta T70 now on 15-20 psi for about 6 months and its beautiful